not as much back and forth between the candidates as we saw in the presidential debate last week, but you try to stick to the formats. it doesn't always work that way. martha raddatz is the moderator here. it should be an hour and a half, a couple minutes to close at the end of this, but, neil, for republicans, it's continuing the momentum from mitt romney's debate, explaning positions, their budget, and who better than to explain the budget, part of the reason they chose paul ryan, than to have recall ryan here. democrats want to stop the republicans' momentum, flush out their policy, and basically take the ryan budget and tear it apart. neil? neil: you think about it, rich, four years ago, the sarah palin debate, more people watched that than the other presidential debates. i'm not sure they are expecting the same for this one because there was such a surprising surge in the number of people who watched last week's presidential debate. i think that was around 70

million. any expectations, highballing it, lowballing it tonight? >> you know, i think maybe when you consider the realm of other presidential and vice presidential debates, so many expectations are lotter in vice presidential debates, and even vice presidential picks, but this year is a little bit different only because republicans went out and picked a guy who's written their national economic plan. he's the face of the republican economic plan. he's got the most details out of two economic plans from governor romney and the economic committee. his budget passed the house. it's the fore front of the campaign here, neil, republicans are aware of that as well as democrats. neil: rich edson, thank you very much. rich, the other side of the spin room with me here and that after the debate is over, we rejoin you, it will be crowded. the event itself now, martha raddatz. >> moderator: good eveningment

welcome to the first vice presidential debate in 2012. i'm martha raddatz of abc news, and i'm honored to moderate the debate between two men who dedicated much of their lives to public service. tonight's debate is divided between domestic and foreign policy issues, and i'm going to move back and forth between foreign and domestic since that is what a vice president or president would have to do. we'll have nine different segments. at the beginning of each segment, i'll ask both candidates a question, and they'll have two minutes to answer. i'll encourage a discussion between the candidates with follow-up questions. by coin toss, it has been determined that vice president biden will be first to answer the opening question. we have a wonderful audience here at centre college tonight. you'll no doubt hear enthusiasm at the end of the debate, and right now, as we welcome vice president joe biden and congressman paul ryan.

[cheers and applause] [applause] >> moderator: okay. you got the wave to the families in. that's great. good evening, gentlemen, an honor to be here with both of you. i'd like to begin with libya on a rather somber note a month ago tonight on the anniversary of 9/11, ambassador chris stevens and three other brave americans were killed in a terrorist attack in benghazi. the state department has now made clear there were no protesters there. it was the preplanned assault by hsm -- heavily armed men. wasn't this is massive intelligence failure, vice president biden?

biden: it was, martha. chris stevens was one of the best and three other brave americans. i can make two commitments to you and the american people tonight. one, we'll find and bring to justice the men who did this, and secondly, we'll get to the bottom of this, and wherever the facts lead us, whrfer they lead us, we'll make clear to the american public, whatever mistakes were made, will not be made again. martha, it seems to me, look at a president's most important responsibility, caring for the national security of the country. take a look at how he's handled the issues of the day. on iraq, the president said he'd end the war. governor romney said it was a tragic mistake. we -- ended it, governor romney said it was a mistake and should have left 30,000 troops there. with regard to afghanistan, he'll end the war in 2014. governor romney said we should

not set a date number one, and number two, with regard to 2014, it depends. when it came to osama bin laden, the president, first day in office, sitting with him in the oval office, and he said the highest priority is to get bin laden. prior to the election, prior to him being sworn in, romney was asked the question about how to proceed. he said i wouldn't move heaven and earth to get bin laden. it was more about taking a murder off the battlefield, but restoring america's heard and letting terrorists around the world know if you do harm to america, we'll track you to the gates of hell if need be. lastly, the president of the united states has led with a steady hand clear vision. governor romney, the opposite. the last thing we need now is another war. >> moderator: congressman ryan? ryan: we mourn the loss of the four americans murdered. when you take a look what

happened in the last few weeks, they sent the u.n. ambassador out to say this was because of a protest and a youtubeed video. it took the president two weeks to acknowledge that this was a terrorist attack. he went to the u.n., neant speech at the u.n., he said six times, he talked about the youtube video. look. if we're hit by terrorists, we're going to call it for what it is, a terrorist attack. our ambassador in paris had a marine detachment guarding him. shouldn't we have a marine detachment guarding our ambassador in benghazi, a place where we knew there was an al-qaeda cell with arms? this is becoming more troubling by the day. they first blamed the youtube video, and now blaming the romney-ryan ticket for making it an issue. with respect to iraq, we had the same position before the withdrawal which was we agreed with the obama administration. let's have a status forces

agreement to ensure we secure our gains. the vice president was put in charge of the negotiations by president obama, and they failed to get the agreement. we don't have an agreement because they failed to get one. that's what we're talking about. when it comes to the veterans, we owe them a great debt of gratitude for what they have done to us, including your son, beau, but we can't lose what we fought to get. we agree with the 2014 transition, but what we want to do is make sure we're not projecting weakness abroad. that's what's happening here. this benghazi issue would be a tragedy in and of itself, but unfortunately, it's indicative of a broader problem which is what we watch on the tv screens is the unraveling of the obama foreign policymaking it more chaotic and us less safe. >> moderator: i just want to talk to you right in the middle of the crisis, governor romney, and you're talking about this

again tonight, talked about the weakness, talked about apologies from the obama administration. was that really appropriate right in the middle of the crisis? ryan: on that same day, the obama administration had the exact same position. let's recall they disenvowed their own statement put out earlier in the day in cairo. we had the same position. it's never too early to speak out for our values. we should have spoken out right away when the green revolution was up and starting when the mu las in iran for attacking their people and not call assad a reformer when he was turning guns on his own people. we should always stand up for peace, for democracy, for individual rights. we should not be imposing these devastating defense cuts because what that does when we equivocate on our values, when we show we are slowing our defense, shows weakness. when we with weak, adversaries

attack us and -- biden: with all do respect. that's a bunch of molarky. nothing you said is accurate. >> moderator: be specific. biden: i will be very specific. number of one, the lecture on embassy security, the congressman here cut the budget by $300 million below what we asked for. number one. so much for the embassy security piece. number two, governor romney, before he knew the facts, before he even knew our ambassador was killed was out making a political statement which was panned by the media around the world, and this talk about this -- this weakness, i don't understand what my phren's talking about here. this is a president who went out and has done everything he said he was going to do, a guy who repaired alliances so the rest of the world follows us again, and brought the entire world including russia and china to bring about the most

devastating, most devastateing efforts on iran to make sure that they, in fact, stop -- look, i just -- i mean, these guys bet against america all the time. >> moderator: let me go back to libya. biden: yeah, sure. >> moderator: way were you first told about the attack? why were people talking about protests when people in the consulate first saw armed men attacking with guns. there were no protesters. why did that go on for weeks? biden: exactly what we were told by the intelligence community. the intelligence community told us about that, as they learned facts about what happened, they changed the assessment. there's an investigation headed by tom pickerring, the leading diplomat from the reagan years investigating what lapses were so they don't happen again. displm they wanted more -- >> moderator: they wanted more security there.

biden: we were not told that. we were not told they wanted more security. by the way, at the time, we said exactly what the intelligence community told us that they knew. that was the assessment. as the intelligence community changed their view, we made it clear they changed their view. that's why i said we'll get to the bottom of the this. you know, usually when there's a crisis, we pull together. we pull together as a nation. as i said, even before we knew what happened to the ambassador, the governor governor was holdis conference. that's not presidential leadership. >> moderator: mr. ryan, the romney campaign talks about no apologies. should the u.s. have apologized for americans burning korans in afghanistan? should the u.s. apologize for u.s. marines urinating on taliban corpses? ryan: we should not apologizeing

for our values, and we should not be doing the egyptian people, that mubarak is a good guy, and then the next week, he ought to go. we should not reject claims for calls for more security in our marines. we need ma reaps in ben-gay -- benghazi. there were requests for extra security. those requests were not honored. look, this was the anniversary of 9/11. it was libya, a country we knew we had al-qaeda cells there. as we know, al-qaeda and its affiliates on the rise in north africa, and we didn't give the ambassador in benghazi a marine attachment? of course there's an investigation to ensure it doesn't happen again, but when it comes to speaking up for the values, we should not apologize for those. here's the problem. look at the various issues out there unraveling before our eyes.

the vice president -- >> moderator: moving to iran. i'd actually like to move to iran because there's no bigger national security this country faces, both president obama and governor romney said they'll prevent iran from getting a nuclear weapon even if that means military action. last week, former defense secretary said a strike on iran's facilities would not work, and, quote, "could prove catastrophic, haunting us for generations." can the two of you be absolutely clear and specific to the american people how effective would a military strike be? congressman ryan? ryan: we can want allow iran to gain nuclear weapons capability. now, let's take a look where we have come from. when president obama was elected, they had enough nuclear material to make one bomb. now they have enough for five. they are racing for a weapon. four years closer to a nuclear weapons capability. we had four sanctions on iran,

three from the bush administration, one here, and the only reason we got it because russia watered it down preventing sanctions from hitting the central bank. mitt romney proposed sanctions in 2007, and congress, i've been fighting for the sanctions since 2009, the administration blocked us every step of the way because we had strong bipartisan support for the tough sanctions were were able to overrule their objections and put them in spite of the administration. imagine what would have happened if the sanctions were in place earlier. you think iran's not brazen? they are stepping up attacks. they aced an attack in the united states last year trying to blow up the saudi ambassador in a restaurant in washington, d.c.. talk about credibility? when this administration says all options are on the table, they send out senior administration officials that send mixed signals, and so in order to solve this peacefully, which is everybody's goal, you have to have them change their minds. look at where they are.

moving faster towards a nuclear weapon because the administration has no credibility on the issue and because the administration watered down sanctions, delayed them, tried to stop the tough sanctions. they are now in place because of congress. they say the military's option is on the table, but it's not viewed as cred l. the key is to do this peacefully to ensure we have creditability. under a romney administration, we'll have credibility on the issue. biden: incredible. imagine had we let the republican congress work out the sanctions. do you think there's any possibility the entire world would have joined us? russia and china, all of the allies? these are the most crippling sanctions in the history of sanctions, period. period. when governor romney's asked about it, he said we have to keep the sanctions. when you say, well, you talk about doing more. are you going to go to war -- ryan: we want to prevent war.

biden: how will they prevent war? they say there's nothing more that they say we should do than we've already done, number one. number two, with regard to the ability of the united states to take action militarily, it is not in my purview to talk about classifieded information, but we feel confident we could deal a serious blow to the iranians, but, number two, the iranians, military and united states intelligence communities are absolutely the same exact place in terms of how close -- how close the iranians are to getting a nuclear weapon. they are a good way away. there is no difference between our view and theirs. when my friend talks about fissile material, they have to tyke highly enriched uranium, get it 20% up, and then they have to have something to put it in. there is no weapon that the iranians have at this point. both the israelis and we know --

we'll know if they start the process of building a weapon. all this bluster i keep hearing, all of this lose talk, what are they talking about? are you talking about, to be more credible? what more can the president do? stand before the united nations, tell the world, directly communicate that we will not let them acquire a nuclear weapon, period. unless he's talking about going to war. ryan: martha? >> moderator: congressman ryan. ryan: what do they see? they see this administration trying to water down sanctions in congress for over two years. they are moving faster towards a nuclear weapon. they are spinning the center general ifuges faster. they see president obama in new york city the same day benjamin netanyahu is, and rather than meeting with him, goes on a daily talk show.

they see, when we say these options are on the table, the secretary of defense walks them back. they are not changing their mind. that's what we have to do. change their mind so they stop pursuing weapons. >> moderator: how do you do it so quickly? you both saw benjamin netanyahu hold up that picture of a bomb with a red line and talking about the red line being in spring so can you solve this if -- if the romney-ryan ticket is elected, can you solve this in two months before spring and avoid nuclear -- ryan: we can debate the time line whether it's that short a time or longer. i agree it's probably longer. number two, it's all -- >> moderator: you don't agree with what the israelis -- ryan: i don't want to go into classified stuff, but we both agree to do this peacefully, they have to change their minds. they're not changing their minds, and look at whatted administration does.

biden: let me tell you -- ryan: you have to cr credibility. biden: they see an economy crippled, that there's 50% fewer exports of oil. he sees the currency going into the tank. he sees the economy going in a free fall, and he sees the world for the first time totally united in opposition to him getting a nuclear weapon. with regard to bb, he's been my phren, and the president met with him a dozen times and spoke with him as much as anybody. i was -- just before he went to the u.n., i was in a conference call with the president, with him talking to bb for well over an hour, and stark relief in what was going on. this is a bunch of stuff. >> moderator: what's that mean, "a bunch of stuff"? ryan: it's irish. biden: it is.

the secretary of defense can't walk anything back. we will not alllw the iranians to get a nuclear weapon? what bb held up there was when they get to the point where they can enrich ewe rain yum enough to put in a weapon. they don't have a weapon to put it into. let's calm down a little bit here. iran is more isolated today than when we took office. it was on the asen den sigh when we took office. it's tote hi isolated. >> moderator: congressman ryan? ryan: thank goodness we have the sanctions in place. it's in spite of their opposition. they gave 20 waivers to the legislation. all i have to point to is the results. they are four years closer to the nuclear weapon. that speaks for itself. biden: by the way, -- >> moderator: there's another war in the middle east -- biden: they are closer to being able to get enough fissile material to put in a weapon if they had a weapon. >> moderator: you are # acting like they don't want one,

though. biden: i'm not. facts matter, martha. you're a foreign policy exert. facts matter. all the lose talk, all they have to is enrich uranium and get a weapon. not true. not true. if we ever have to take action, unlike when we took office, we'll have the world behind us, and that matters. that matters. >> moderator: what about bob gate's statement? i'll read it again. "could prove catastrophic haunting us for generations." biden: he's right. ryan: it underminds our credibility backing up the point when we make it all options on the table. that's the point. they see these statements and think i'm going to get a nuclear weapon. when we see the keep of equivocation that took place because this administration wanted a preconditioned policy,

so when the green revolution started up, they were silent for nine days. when they see us putting daylight between ourselves and allies and israel, that gives them encouragement. when they see russia watering down any further sanctions, the only reason we got a u.n. sanction because russia watered it down preventing these from being sanctions in the first place. when they see this activity, they are encouraged to continue. >> moderator: what's worse, war in the middle east, another war in the middle east or a nuclear armed iran? ryan: i'll tell you what's worse. a nuclear armed iran triggers a nuclear arms race in the middle east. it'sed -- it's the world's largest terrorist organization, and they'll pursue other nuclear weapons as well. we can't live with that. biden: war should always be the absolute last resort. that's why these crippling

sanctions with benjamin netanyahu says we should continue, which if i'm not mistaken, governor romney says we should continue. i may be mistaken. he changes his mind so often i could be wrong, but the fact of the matter he says they are working and they are crippled by them. we made it clear, big nations can't bluff. this president doesn't bluff >> moderator: gentlemen, i want to bring the conversation to a different security issue. the state of our economy. the number one issue here at home is jobs. the percentage of unemployed just fell below 8% for the first time in 43 months. the obama administration had projected that it would fall below 6% now after the addition of close to a trillion dollars in stimulus money. will both of you level with the american people, can you get unemployment to under 6% and how long will it take?

biden: i don't know how long it takes. we can and will get it under 6%. let's take a look at the facts. let's look at where we were when we came into office. the economy was in free fall. we had the great recession hit, 9 million people lost their job. 1.7 -- 1.6 trillion in wealth lost in equity in homes and retirement counts for the middle class. we had to agent for the middle class. we rescued regime motors, went ahead and cut taxes for the middle class, and in addition to that, when that occurred, what did romney do? he said, no, let detroit go bankrupt. we moved in and helped people refinance their homes. governor omney said, no, let foreclosures hit the bottom. it's not surprising for a guy who says 47% of the american people are unwilling to take responsibility for their own lives. my friend in washington said 30% of the american people are takers. these people are my mom and dad,

the people i grew up with, my neighbors. they pay more effective tax than governor romney pays in the federal income tax. they are elderly people who, in fact, live off of social security. there are veterans and people fighting in afghanistan right now, quote, not paying any taxes. i had it up to here with the notion that 47% -- it's about time they take some responsibility here, and instead of signing pledges to grover norquist not to ask the wealthiest among us to bring back the middle class, they should sign a pledge saying to the middle class we'll level the playing field giving you a fair shot again. we are going to not repeat the mistakes we made in the past by having a different set of rules for wall street and main street making sure that we continue to hemorrhage these tax cuts for the super wealthy. they are pushing the con tippuation of a -- continuation of a tax cut giving an addition nap $500 billion in tax cuts to 120,000 families. they are holding hostage the

middle class tax cut because they say we won't pass, won't continue the middle class tax cut unless you give the tax cut for the super wealthy. it's time they take responsibility. >> moderator: mr. ryan? ryan: we are from similar towns. you know what the unemployment rate is in scranton today? it's 10%. the day you came in was 8.5%. that's how it's going all around america. you -- biden: that's not how it's going. it's going down. >> moderator: two minute answers. ryan: did they inherit a tough situation? absolutely. we're going in the wrong direction. look at where we are. the economy's barely limping along growing at 1.3%, slower than it grew last yearing and last year was slower than the year before. job growth in september was slower than august, and august slower than july. it's the wrong direction.

23 million americans are struggling for work today. 15% of americans are living in poverty today. this is not what a real recovery looks like. we need real reforms for real recovery. it's a five point plan. get america energy dependent by the end of the decade. help people get the skills or the jobs they want. get deficit and debt under control. make trade work for america to make more things in america and sell them overseas and champion small businesses. don't raise taxes on small businesses because they are the job creators. he talked about detroit. mitt romney's a car guy. they keep misquoting him. the mitt romney i know is a guy who i was talking to a family in massachusetts the other day, sheryl and mark nixson. their kids hit in a car crash, two of them parollized.

mitt wanted to come over on christmas bringing his boys, his wife, and gifts. later on he said i know you're struggling, mark, don't worry about college. i'll pay for it. when mark told me the story because mitt doesn't tell the stories. when i was told the story, he said it was not the cash help, but that he gave his time and he has consistently. this is a map who gave 30% of the income to charity, more than the two of us combined. mitt romney's a good man and cares about 100% of americans in the country. with respect to that quote, i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. [laughter] biden: i always say what i mean. [laughter] so does romney. ryan: we want everybody out of poverty, in the middle class, on a life of self-sufficiency. we believe in opportunity and

upward mobility. that's what we push for in a romney administration. >> moderator: vice president, i have a feeling you have a few things to say here. biden: the idea, if you heard that little 47%, you think he just made a mistake, then i think you're -- i got a bridge to sell you. look, i don't doubt his personal generosity, and i understand what it's like. when i was a little younger than the congressman, my wife was in an accident, killed my daughter and my wife and two sons survived. i've sat in the homes of many people have gone through what i went through because the one thing you can give people so las is to know you know you've been through it and they can make it. i don't doubt his personal commitment to individuals, but you know what? i know he had no commitment to the automotive industry saying let it go bankrupt, period. let it drop out. all of this talk.

we saved a million jobs. 200,000 people working today. i've never met two guys more down on america across the board. we're told everything's going bad. 5.2 million new private sector jobs. we need more. it they get out of the way and let us pass the tax cuts for the middle class, make it permanent, they get out of the way and pass the jobs, if they get out of the way and let us allow 14 million people struggling to stay in their hopes because the mortgages are upsidedown when they never missed a mortgage payment, get out of the way. stop talking about how you care about people. show me something. she me a policy. show me a policy where you take responsibility, and, by the way, they talk about this great recession as if it fell out sky like oh, my goodness, where did it come from? it came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card at the same time putting a prescription drug benefit on the credit card, a trillion dollar

tax cut for very wealthy. i was there. i voted against them saying, no, we can't afford that. now, all of the sudden, these guys are so seized with the concern about the debt that they created. >> moderator: congressman ryan? ryan: let's not forget they came in with one party control. when president obama was legislated, his party controlled everything and could do anything of their choosing. look where we are now. they passed the stimulus, spend if on special interest groups to work out just fine, that unemployment would never get to 8%. it was above 8% for 433 months. right now, if we just pass the stimulus, the economy grows at 4%, but it's growing at 1 #.3%. >> moderator: when could you get it below? ryan: that's what the plan is. creating 12 million jobs in four years. look at the $90 billion in

stimulus. the vice president was in charge of overseeing this. $90 billion in green pork to campaign critters and special interest groups. just at the department of energy, over 100 criminal investigations that have been -- biden: martha -- >> moderator: go ahead. >>biden: runs an investigative committee spending months and months. ryan: it's the inspector general. biden: they found no evidence of cronyism. i love the friend here. i can't show letters, but go to the website, there's two letters sent saying, by the way, send me stimulus money for companies here in the state of wisconsin. we sent that. >> moderator: you did ask for stimulus money? biden: sure, he did. ryan: for constituents two apply for grants. that's what we do. biden: i love that. it's such a bad program, and writes me a letter saying the reason we need this stimulus is

it will create growth and jobs. his words. now he's sitting here looking at me, and, by the way, that program, again, investigated, what the congress said was it was a model, less than four tenths of 1 #% waste or fraud in the program, and all of this talk about cronnyism. they invest gaited. they did not find one single piece of ed. -- evidence. i wish he was candid. ryan: was it a good idea to spend taxpayer dollars in finland or in china? borrow money from countries like china and spend it on various different interest groups in biden: it was a good idea, and it was said this was exactly what we needed to stop this from going off the cliff, set conditions to be able to grow again. we have, in fact, 4% of those green jobs that didn't go under. didn't work, a better value average, investment bankers --

ryan: where are the 5 million green jobs? >> moderator: i want to move to medicare and entitlements. biden: any letter you send me, i'll entertain. ryan: i appreciate that, joe. >> moderator: social security and medicare are going broke taking a larger share of the budget in the process. will benefits under the programs have to change for the programs to survive? mr. ryan? ryan ripe absolutely. medicare and social security are going bankrupt. look, when i look at the programs, we all have tragedies in our lives. i think of what they did for my family. my mom and i had my grandmother move in with us who was facing alzheimer's. medicare was there for her like my mom now who is a florida senior. when my dad died, she got social security benefits, it helped her go back to college in her 50s,

started a new business with the skills she got, paid it back and taxes on the promise these programs will be there for her. we have to reform it for my generation. you see, if you reform programs for my generation, people 54 and below, you can guarantee they don't change for people in our near retirement, which is precisely what mitt romney and i propose. look what obamacare does. obamacare takes $716 billion from medicare to spend on obamacare, even their own chief actuary of medicare backs this up saying you can't spend the same dollar twice claiming this money goes to medicare and obamacare, and them they put the new obamacare board in charge of cutting medicare each and every year in ways that lead to denied care for current seniors. this board, by the way, 15 people, the president is supposed to appoint them next year, and not a one of them has to have medical training. in social security, when we run out of the ious, the program is

bankrupt, a 25% across the board benefit cut kicks in on current seniors in the middle of retirement. we'll stop that from happening. they have not put a credible solution on the table. he talks about vouchers, all of these things to scare people. here's what we are saying. give younger people, when they become medicare eligible, guaranteed coverage options that you can't be denieded like traditional medicare. choose your plan, and medicare subsidizes premiums. not as much for the wealthier people, more coverage for the middle, and no out of pocket for poor and sick. we want 50 million future seniors determine how medicare is delivered to them rather than 15 bureaucrats deciding what, if, where, when they get it. >> moderator: vice president biden? biden: every debate i hear this stuff abouttpanels. let's talk about medicare. what we did is we save $716

billion and put it back and applied that to medicare cutting the cost of medicare, stopping over paying insurance companies when doctors and hospitals -- the ama supported what we did. aarp endorsed what we did. it extends the life of medicare to 2024. they want to wipe this out out. it gave more benefits, and any senior out there, ask you're. do you have more benefits today? you do, if you're near the donut hole, you have more for prescription drug costs, wellness visits without co-pays. they wipe it out, and medicare is insol vent in 2016. number one. number two, guarantee benefit. it's a voucher. when the congressman had the first voucher program, the cbo said it would cost $6400 a year, martha, more for every senior 55 and below when they got there. he knew that, yet, he got all

the guys in congress and women in the republican party to vote for it. governor romney, knowing that, said i would sign it were i there. who do you believe? the ama, me, a guy who fought his life for this? somebody who would actually put in motion a plan that knowingly cuts 6400 added dollars more to the cost of medicare. now there's a new plan. trust me. it's not going to cost you more. folks, follow your instincts on this. with regard to social security, we will not privatize it. if listened to romney and the bush years imagine where the seniors would be now if their money had been in the market. their ideas are old. their ideas are bad. they eliminate the guarantee of medicare. ryan: here's the problem. they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar turning medicare into a piggy bank for

obamacare. their own actuary said one out of six hospitals and nursing homes will go out of business as a result of this. biden: that's not -- ryan: 7 # -- 7.4 million seniors expected to lose the coverage they have. biden: more -- more people signed up for medicare advantage ryan: what they are saying -- mr.mr. vice president, i know yr under duress, but i think people will be better served if we stop interrupting each other. biden: stop taking audiotape the four minutes then. ryan: don't change people 55 and above. they organized their retirements. >> moderator: what is your specific plan for seniors who really can't afford to make up the difference in the value of what you call a premium support plan others call a voucher. ryan: 100% coverage.

that's what we are saying. >> moderator: how do you make it up? ryan: taking down sub subsidiesr wealthy people. that $6400 number was misleading then, inaccurate now. it's a plan that's bipartisan, a plan i put together with a prominent democrat senator from oregon. biden: not one democrat who endorses this or signed -- ryan: our plan is a democrat from oregon. we put that together with the former clinton budget director. this idea came from the clinton commission to save medicare chaired by the senator. here's the point, martha, if we don't fix the problem soon, current seniors get cut. 10,000 people retire every day in america today, and they will for 20 years. that's not a political thing. biden: martha, one thing. if they just allow medicare to bargain for the cost of drugs like medicaid can, that saves $156 billion right off the bat.

ryan: denying seniors' choices. biden: seniors are not denied. ryan: absolutely. biden: folks, all you seniors out there, have you been denied choices? have you lost medicare advantage? >> moderator: vice president biden, if it could help solve the problem, why not very slowly raise the medicare eligibility age by two years as congressman ryan suggests? biden: look, i was there when we did that with social security in 1983. i was e of eight people sitting in the room that included tip negotiating with reagan. we all together -- everybody's in the deal, everybody is making some sacrifice, we can find a way. we made the system solvent to 2033. we will not be part of any voucher plan eliminating -- it says, mom, when you're 65, go out there, shop for the best

insurance you can get, you're out of medicare. you can buy back in with the voucher which will not keep pace with health care costs because if it did keep pace with health care costs, there would be no savings. that's why they go the voucher. they -- we will be no part of a voucher program or the privatization of social security. ryan: a voucher is you go to the mailbox, get a check, buy something. nobody's proposing that. president obama four years ago said if you don't have fresh ideas, use stale tactics to scare voters. if you don't have a good record, paint the opponent as someone to run from. >> moderator: you were one of the few lawmakers to stand with president bush when he was seeking to partially privatize social security. ryan: for younger people. what we said then and what i agreed is let younger americans have a voluntary choice of making their money work faster for them within the social security system.

that's not what mitt romney proposes. we say no changes for anybody 55 and above -- biden: what mitt romney is proposing -- ryan: the changes we talk about for younger people like myself is don't increase benefit for the wealthy people as fast as anybody else, raise the age over time. age of 70 to the year 2103. >> moderator: quickly, vice president. biden: the studies show if we went with social security proposal made by mitt romney, if you're in your 40s now, you pay $2600 -- you get $2600 less in social security. if you're in the 20s now, you get $4700 less. the idea of changing and change being in this case to cut the benefits for people without taking other action you can do to make it work is absolutely the wrong way. look. these guys had not been big op medicare from the beginning. the party not big on medicare from the beginning, and they have been about social security

as little as you can do. folks, use your common sense. who do you trust op this? a man who introduced a bill that raises it $6400 a year knowing it and passing it and romney saying you sign it, or me and the president? ryan: that stat was misleading, but more importantly this is what politicians do what they don't have a record to run on. try to scare people from voting for you. if you don't get ahead of the problem, it attacks you. we're not -- >> moderator: moving on to a simple question. ryan: medicare and social security did so much for my family. we will not jeopardize the program, but we have to save it. biden: you change it from a guaranteed benefit to preach yom support, whatever you call it. people have to pay out of their pocket, and the families i know and families i come from, they don't have the money to pay more out of pocket. ryan: more for lower income people and less for higher

income people. >> moderator: a simple question for both of you, and something tells me i'm not getting a simple answer, but i'll tell you this. biden: i gave a simple answer, raising the cost of medicare. >> moderator: if your ticket is elected, who pays more in taxes and who pays less starting with vice president biden for two minutes. biden: middle class pays less and those mmking a million arian more pay more. the continuation of the bush tax cuts argue that the bush tax cuts for the wealthy should be allowed to expire. of the bush tax cuts for the wealthy, $800 billion of that goes to people making a minimum of a million dollars. we see no justification for those in the economy times, they are not asking for this continued tax cut. they are not suggesting it, but my friends insist on it. 120,000 families by continuing that tax cut will get an

additional $500 billion in tax -elief in the next ten years, and their income is an average of $8 million. we want to extend permanently the middle class tax cut for permanently from the bush middle class tax cut. these guys won't allow it. they say let's have a vote on the middle class tax cut and upper tax cut. let's go ahead and vote on it. they say, no. they hold hostage the middle class tax cut to the super wealthy, and on top of that, they have another tax cut coming. that's $5 trillion that all of the studies point out will, in fact, give another $250 million -- yeah, $250,000 a year to those 120,000 families raising taxes for people who are middle income with a child by $2,000 a year. this is unconscionable. there is no need for this. the middle class got knocked on their heels. the great recession crushed them. they need some help now.

the last people that need help are 120,000 families for another $500 billion tax cut over the next ten years. >> moderator: congressman? ryan: our entire premise of the tax reform plan is to grow the economy creating jobs. it's a plan estimated to create 7 million jobs. now, we think that government taking 28% of a family's business and income is enough. president obama thinks the government should take as much as 44.8% of a small business' income. look, if you taxed every person in successful small business making over $250,000 at 100%, it only runs the government for 98 days. if everybody who paid income taxes last yearing inning successful small business doubled income taxes this year, we'd have a $300 billion deficit. there are not enough rich people and small businesses to tax to

pay for all of their spending. the next time you hear them say don't worry about it, we'll get wealthy people to pay the fair share. watch out, middle class. the tax bill's coming to you. that's why we are saying we need fundamental tax reform. eight out of ten businesses file taxes as individuals, not corporations. where i come from overseas which is lake superior, the canadians dropped tax rates to 15%. the average tax rate on businesses p in the industrialized world is 25%, and the president wants the top tax rate on successful small businesses to be above 40 #%. two-thirds of the jobs come from small businesses. this one tax would actually tax about 53% of small business income. it's expected to cost us 710,000 jobs. you know what? it doesn't even pay for 10% of the proposed deficit spending increases. what we are saying is lower tax

rates across the board, close loopholes primarily to the higher income people. three bottom lines. don't raise the deficit. don't raise taxes on the middle class. don't lower the share of forecast had -- income by the high income earners. the plan has been discredited by six studies and own deputy campaign manager acknowledgedded it was not -- acknowledged it was not correct. >> moderator: talk about the 20%. you refused to offer specifies how to pay for the 20% across the board tax cut. do you have the specifics or are you still working on it, and that's why you don't tell voters? ryan: we want to have big bipartisan agreements. >> moderator: do you have the specifics? ryan ripe look -- ryan: look at what reagan and tip did, working together out of a frame work to broaden the base, and they worked together

to fix that. what we are saying is here's the frame work. lower tax rates 20%. we raise about 1.2 trillion through income taxes. we forego about 1.1 trillion in loopholes and deductions, and so what we are saying is deny those loopholes and deductions to higher income taxpayers so more of the income is taxed, which has a broader base of taxation so we can lower tax rates across the board. this is why i'm saying this. we are saying -- biden: i hope i have time to respond. >> moderator: you'll get time. ryan: we have to work to achieve this. what we are saying is lower tax rates 20%, start with the wealthy, work with congress -- >> moderator: you guarantee -- ryan: six studies verified this math adds up. >> moderator: vice president biden. biden: let me to have a chance to translate. i was there when reagan gave specifics what he was going to cut number one, in terms of tax

expenditures. number two, 97% of the small business in america pay less than -- make less than $250,000. let me tell you who the small businesses are. hedge funds that make $600 million a year. that is what they count as small business because they are pass through. look at how sip sere they -- sincere they are. governor romney on "60 minutes" was asked, governor, you pay 14% on $20 million, someone making $50,000 pays more than that. do you think that's fair? he said, oh, yes, that's fair. that's fair. they talk -- you think these guys go out there to cut loopholes? the biggest hoop hole is the carried interest leap hole and capital gains loophole. there's not enough. the reason why the aei study, the american enterprise institute study, tax policy statewide, the reason they say taxes go up on the middle class,

the only way you can find $5 trillion in loopholes is cut the mortgage deduction for middle class people, cult the health care deduction, take away the ability to get a tax break to send kids to college. that's why they -- >> moderator: is he wrong about that? ryan: he is. biden: how's that? ryan: you can cut tax rates by 20% and preserve the preferences -- biden: not mathematically possible. ryan: it is. it's been done before. we are proposing -- biden: it's been done before. ryan: a couple times. jack kennedy -- biden: now you're jack kennedy. rick perry republicans -- republicans and democrats worked together. i understand you are not used to bipartisan deals. biden: here's the things we'll cut -- ryan: filling in the details is how you get things done. work with congress. mitt romney --

biden: working bipartisanly? 7% rating? ryan: mitt myth was governor of massachusetts. he didn't demagogue the deems, but met with them every week, reached across the aisle, didn't compromise principles, found commonground and balanced the budget. biden: if he did such a great job -- ryan: four times without raising taxes. >> moderator: what would you suggest beyond raising taxes on the wealthy that would substantially -- biden: let them expire like they are supposed to on the millionaires. we can't afford $800 billion going to people making a minimum of a million dollars. they do not need it, martha. those 120,000 families make $8 million a year. middle class people need the help. why does my friend cut out the tuition tax credit for them? why does -- >> moderator: can you declare

anything else? ryan: close loopholes for higher income people. biden: can you guarantee no one making less than $100,000 have mortgages impacted? ryan: he keeps trying to make you think it's a movie star hedge fund guy. biden: 97% of the small businesses make less than $250,000 a year would not be affected one bit. ryan: this tax affects a million small businesses. it taxes a million small businesses who are greatest job creators. biden: the greatest -- >> moderator: and increase the defense. ryan: they propose -- >> moderator: no massive -- ryan: we're saying -- defense now? >> moderator: yes, i do. i do. that's another math question. ryan: right, okay. >> moderator: how do you do

that? ryan: they proposed a cut to defense to begin with, and now we have another $500 billion cut to defense that's lurking on the horizon. they encysted upon the cut involved in the debt negotiations. >> moderator: let's put the automatic defense cuts aside. no one wants that, but i want to know how do you do the math and have this increase in defense spending? ryan: you don't cut it by a trillion dollars. that's what we are talking about. >> moderator: what national security issues justify an increase? ryan: cutting 80,000 soldiers, 20 ,000 marines, 120 cargo planes, push the -- >> moderator: drawing down in one war. ryan: if the cuts go through, the nay -- navy will be the smallest it's been since world war i inviting weakness. we believe in peace through strength. don't impose devastating cuts on the military.

we say don't cut the military by a trillion dollars. not increase it by a trillion. don't cut it by a trillion. >> moderator: quickly, i want to move on. biden: we don't call it. this so-called i know we don't want to question the automatic cut, but that was part of a debt deal they asked for. i'll tell you what my friend say in a press conference saying, and i'm paraphrasing, looking for this moment for a long time. ryan: can i tell you what it met? looking for bipartisanship a long time. biden: voted for that if they didn't act. beyond that, look, the military says we need a smaller leaner army, more special forces, we don't need more m1 tanks. >> moderator: some of the military -- biden: not some of the military. that was the decision of the joint chiefs of staff recommended to us agreed to by

the president. that's a fact. they made the recommendation first. >> moderator: moving on to afghanistan -- ryan: can i get into this? >> moderator: i want to move into afghanistan. it's one the biggest expenditures the country made in dollars and more importantly, in lives. we passed the sad milestone of losing 2,000 u.s. troops there in the war, more than 50 of them were killed this year by the very afghan forces we're trying to help. we reached the recruiting goals for afghan forces, degraded al-qaeda. tell me, why not leave now? what more can we really accomplish? is it worth more americans lives? ryan: we don't want to lose gains we've gotten. we want to make sure the taliban does not come back in and give al-qaeda a safe haven. we agree with the administration on the 2014 transition. look, when i think about afghanistan, i think about the incredible job that our troops have done. you've been there more than the two of us combined. first time i've been there, it

was amazing to me what they were facing. i went to the valley in kandahar before the surge, sat down with a young private who told me what he did every day. i was in awe. to see what they had in front of them, and then go in december to go throughout helmand with the marines and what they accomplished? it's nothing short of amazing. what we don't want to do is lose gapes we've gotten. now, we disagreed from time to time on a few issues. we would have more likely taken into account that recommendations from our commanders, general petraeus, admiral mullen, on troop levels throughout this year's fighting season. we've been skeptical about negotiations with the taliban, especially while they are shooting at us, but we want to see the 2014 transition be successful meaning we want to make sure our commanders have what they need to ensure it is successful so this duds in the again become a launching pad for

terrorists. biden: martha, keep our eye on the ball. the reason i've been in afghanistan to 20 times, been up in the valley, throughout that whole country, mostly in a helicopter and sometimes in a vehicle. the fact is we went there for one reason, to get the people who killed americans, al-qaeda. we decimated al-qaeda central. we eliminated bin laden. that was our purpose. in the meantime, we said we'd help train the afghan military. it's their responsibility to take over their own security, that's why with 49 of the allies in afghanistan, we've agreed on a garage wall draw down so we are out of there by the year -- in the year 2014. my friends and the governor say it's based on conditions meaning it depends. it does not depend for us.

it's the responsibility of the afghans to take care of their own security. we have trained over 315,000, mostly without incident. there's been more than two dozen cases of green on blue where americans have been killed. if we do -- if the measures the military has taken do not take hold, we will not go on joint patrols, we will not train in the field, but we'll only train in the army bases that exist there, but we're leaving, we are leaving in 2014, period. in the process, we're going to be saving over the next ten years another $800 billion. we've been in the war for over a decade. the primary objective is almost completed, not all we're doing is putting the kabul government in a position to be able to maintain their own security. it's just their responsibility,

not america's. >> moderator: what conditions could justify staying, congressman? ryan: we don't want to stay. one of my best friends in janesville, reservist, is at a forward operating base in eastern afghanistan right now, wives best friends, daughters best friends. i want him and all troops to come home as soon as as -- and as safely as possible. we have to make sure 2014's successful so we have to make sure we give the commanders what they need to make it successful. we don't want to extend beyond 2014. that's the point we're making. you know, if it was just this, we would be able to call this is success, but it's not. what we're witnessing as we turn over the television screens these days is the unraveling of the foreign policy. problems growing abroad, but jobs are not growing here at home. >> moderator: he says we're

absolutely leaving in 2014. you're saying that's not app absolute, but not talking about -- ryan: you want to know why we say that? we don't want to broadcast to the enemy put a date on the the calendar, wait us out, and come back. >> moderator: you agree on the time line. ryan: we agree with the time line and the transition, but what my administration will do in 2013 is a assess the situation to see how best to complete the time line. biden: we will leave in 2014. ripe ryan we don't want to give the allies reasons to trust us less and our enemies -- we don't want to embolden the enemies to hold and wait out for us and then take over. biden: martha, that's a bizarre statement. ryan: no -- biden: 49 of the allies signed on to this position. 49. 49 of the allies said out in

2014. it's the responsibility of the afghans. we have other responsibilities. >> moderator: but we have soldiers and marines. we have afghan forces murdering our forces there. the taliban is, do you think, taking advantage of this time line? biden: look, the taliban -- what we found out, and you saw it in iraq, martha, unless you set a time line, baghdad, in the case of iraq and kabul and the case of afghanistan, will not step up. they are happy to let us continue to do the job. international security forces to do the job. the only way they step up is say, fellows, we're leaving. we've trained you. step up. step up. >> moderator: let me go back -- biden: that's the only way it works. >> moderator: back to the surge troops we put in there, and you brought it up, congressman ryan. i have talked to a lot of

troops. i've talk to senior officers who were concerned that the surge troops were pulled out during the fighting season and some of them saw that as a political move so can you tell me, vice president biden, what was the military reason for bringing those surge troops home? biden: by the way, when the president announced the surge, you'll remember, martha, he said the surge will be out by the end of the summer. the military said the surge will be out. before the surge occurred so you be straight with me here too. before the surge occurred we said that would be out by the end of the summer. >> moderator: trust me, there are people who are concerned about pulling out on the fighting. biden: there are, but not the joint chiefs. that was their recommendation in the office to the president of

the united states of america. i sat that. you'll find someone who disagrees with the pentagon, positive you'll find that within the military, but that's not the case here. secondly, the reason why the military said that is you cannot wait and have a cliff. it takes, you know, months and months and months to draw down forces. ryan: let me try to illustrate the issue here. it can be confusing. we've all met with general allen and afghanistan to talk about fighting seasons. he's the way it works. the mountain pass fills with snow. the taliban and terrorists and aqani come over from afghanistan to fight our men and women. in the snow, they can't do it. in the summer months, fighting it high. in the winter, it's down. when admiral mullen and general petraeus came to congress saying if you pull the people out before the fighting season's

end, it puts people at risk. that's the problem. we drew 22,000 troops down last month, but the remaining troops there, still having the same mission to prosecute counterinsurgency are doing it with fewer people making them less safe. we send fewer people out in all of the hot spots to do the same job that they were supposed to do a month ago biden: because we turned it over to the afghan troops. we trained. no one got pulled out that didn't get filled in by trained afghan personnel, and he's conflating two issues. the fighting season that petraeus was talking about and former admiral mullen was the figging -- fighting season this spring. that's what he was talking about. we did not pull them out. ryan: calendar works the same every year. biden: it does. ryan: spring, summer, fall --

it's warm or it's not. they still fight us, coming over the passes, coming in to zabul, to all of the areas, but we are sending fewer people to the front to fight them. biden: that's right because that's the afghan responsibility. we've trained them. ryan: not in the east. biden: not in the east? rc east's the most dangerous place. ryan: which is why we don't want to send fewer people. biden: we should be sending in americans to do the job. ryan: we are, but fewer of them. biden: that's right, more afghans to do the job. afghans to do the job. >> moderator: moving to another war. the civil war in syria where there's estimated 30,000 people killed. in march of last year, president obama explained to the military action taken in libya by saying it was in the national interest to go in and prevent further

massacres from occurring there. why doesn't the same logic apply in syria? biden: it's a different country. it's a different country. it is five times as large geographically. it has one fifth the population that is libya, one fifth the population, five times larger geographically in a part of the world they will not see whatever comes from that war seeping into a regional war. you are in a country that's heavily populated in the midst of the most dangerous area in the world, and, in fact, if, in fact, it blows up in and the wrg people gain control, it's going to have impact on the entire region causing potentially regional wars. we are working hand-and-glove with the turks, the senior -- jordannians, and the saudis and the people in the reason identifies the people who need

the help so when assad goes, he will go, and there's a legitimate government that follows on, not an al-qaeda government following on. the lose talk of governor romney and the congressman about how to do so much more in there. what more wowed -- would they do other than put american boots to the ground. the last thing america needs is another ground war in the middle east requiring tens of thousands, if not well over a hundred thousand american forces. they are the facts. they are the facts. now every time the governor's asked about this, he doesn't say -- he -- all -- he goes up with aawhole lot of verbage, but when pressed, he says, no, he would not do anything different than we do now. proposing putting americans on the ground? american aircraft in the air space? if they do, speak up and say so. that's not what they are saying.

we are doing it exactly like we need to do to identify the forces who, in fact, provide for a stable government and not cause a regional sunni shia war when assad falls. ryan: nobody's proposing to send troops to syria. how would we do things differently? we would not refer to assad as a reformer when he kills his own civil yaps with his russian provided weapons. we would not outsource foreign policy to the united nations given putin veto power over our efforts to deal with the issue. he's vetoes three of them. hillary clinton went to russia to try to cop vince him not to do so. they thwarted her efforts and she said they were on the wrong side of the history.

she was right. president obama said assad should go. it's been over a year. the manslaughterred tens of thousands of his own people and more foreign fighters are spilling into the country. the longer this is going on, the more people, groups like al-qaeda, go in. we could have more easily identified the freedom fighters working with our allies, the turks, the saudis had we had a better plan in place to begin with working through our allies, but, no, we waited to try to come up with an agreement with the u.n., giving veto power to the u.n., and meanwhile, 30,000 syrians are dead. biden: he never answered the question. ryan: we would not be going to the u.n.. biden: you don't go through the

u.n.. we are in the process now and have been for months in making sure that help, humanitarian aid swells -- as well as other aid and training are getting to the forces that the turks believe, the saudis believe are the free forces inside the syria. that is underway. our allies were all on the same page, nato as well as our arab allies, in terms of trying to get a settlement. that was their idea. we're the ones that said enough. with regard to the reset not working, the fact of the matter is that russia has a different interest in syria than we do, and that's not in the interest. >> moderator: what happens in assad does not fall? congressman ryan, what happens to the region? what happens if he hangs on? what happens if he does. ryan: iran keeps the greatest ally in the region, sponsor of

terrorism, slaughters his people, and americans lose celt on this. >> moderator: what would romney-ryan do? ryan: we agree on the same red line they do with chemical weapons, but not putting american troops in to secure nuclear weapons. they are right about that, but what we should have done earlier is work with those freedom fighters, those disdense in syria, should not have called assad a reformer. >> moderator: what's your criteria -- ryan: should not have waited for russia to give us the green light. they are still arming the man. iran is flying flights over iraq -- biden: the opposition is being armed. ryan: if we had the agreement that the vice president said he would bet vice president sigh on in iraq, we should have been able to prevent that, but he failed to achieve that as well. again -- >> moderator: quickly, what's your criteria for intervention?

ryan: in syria? >> moderator: worldwide. ryan: what it is in the national interest of the american people. in the strategic national interest of our country. >> moderator: no humanitarian? ryan: each situation has its own set of circumstances, but putting american troops on the ground has to be within the national security interest of the american people. >> moderator: i want to -- we're almost out of time here. ryan: embargoes, sanctions, over flights, those are things that doesn't put american troops on the ground, but if you talk about putting american troops on the ground, only in our national security interest. >> moderator: i want to return home for the last few questions. this debate, is, indeed, historic. we have two catholic candidates, first time on a stage such as this, and i would like to ask you both to tell me what role your religion has played in your own perm views --

personal views on abortion. please talk about how you came to that decision, how your religion played a part in that, and please, this is such an emotional issue for so many people in the country, please talk personally about this if you could. congressman ryan. ryan: i don't see how a person can separate public life from private life or faith. faith informs us of everything we do, how to take care of the vulnerable, how to make sure that people have a chance in life. now, you with respect asking why i'm pro-life, but it's not simply cause ofmy catholic faith. that's a factor of course, but it's also because of reason and science. you know, i think about ten and a half years ago, my wife jane and i went to mercy hospital in janesville where i was born for our seven week ultrasound for

the first born child. we saw that heart beat, our little baby was in the shape of a bean, and to this day, we have nicknamed our first born child, "bean." now, i believe that life begins at conception. that's why those are the reasons why i'm pro-life. now, i understand this is a difficult issue. i want people who don't agree with me on this, but the policy of a romney administration will be to oppose abortion with the exceptions for rain, incest, and life of the mother. what troubles me more is how this administration has handled all of the issues. look at what they are doing through obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of the country. they i infringe upon our first freedom, the freedom of religion by infringing on catholic charities, churches, and

hospitals. the church should not have to sue the federal government to maintain their religious liberties. with respect to abortion? the democratic party used to say they wanted it to be safe, legal, and rare. now? they support it without restriction and with taxpayer funding. taxpayer funding in obamacare, foreign aid, and the vice president, himself, went to china saying he sympathized or wouldn't second guess their one child policy of forced abortions and sterilizations. that, to me, is extreme. >> moderator: vice president biden? biden: my religion defines who i am, and i've been a practicing catholic my whole life. it is particularly informed my social doctrine, catholic social dock trip talks about taking -- doctrine talks about taking care of those who can't for themselves, people who need help. with regard to -- with regard to abortion, i accept my church's

position on abortion as a life begins at conception. that's the church's judgment. i accepted that in my personal life, but i refuse to impose it on equally devout christians, muslims, and jews. i refuse to impose that on others up like my friend here, the congressman. i do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that, women, that they can't control their body. it's a decision between them and their doctor. in my view, the supreme court, i'm not going to interfere with that. with regard to the assault on the catholic church, let me make it absolutely clear, no religious institution, catholic or otherwise, including catholic social services, georgetown hospital, mercy hospital, any hospital. none either has to refer cop --

contraception, none has to pay for contraception or be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. that is a fact. that is a fact. now, with regard to the way in which we differ, my friend says that he -- well, i guess he accepts governor romney's position now because in the past he's argued that there was rain, forcible rain, argued in the case of rain or inzest it was still -- it would be a crime to engage in having an abortion. i just fundamentally disagree. >> moderator: congress congressn ryan. ryan: all i'm saying if you believe life begins at conception, it doesn't change the definition of life. it's a principle. the definition is to oppose abortions with exceptions for rain, incest, and life of the mother. now, i got to take issue with

the catholic church and religious liberty. why would they keep suing you? it's a distinction without a difference. >> moderator: back to the abortion question here. if the romney-ryan ticket is elected, should those who believe that abortion should remain legal be worrieded? ryan: we don't think unelected judges should make the decision that people through their elected representatives in reaching consensus in the society through the democratic process should make this determination. biden: the court, the next president gets one or two supreme court nominees. that's how close row -- roe v. wade is. ask yourself, the chief adviser on the court for mr. romney, who is he likely to appoint? someone like scalia or someone

else on the court, far right, that would outlaw abortion? i suspect that would happen. i guarantee that will not happen. we pick two people, pick people open minded, good justices, keep an eye on the supreme court. ryan: was there a litmus test on them? biden: just an open mind and no agenda. >> moderator: moving on to the closing question because we are returning out of the time. you said it here tonight that the two of you respect the troops enormously. your son has served and perhaps someday your children will serve as well. i recently spoke to a highly decorated soldier who said this presidential campaign has left him dismayeded telling me, quote, "the ads are so negative tearing down each other rather than building up the country." what do you say to that american hero about the campaign, and at the end of the day, are you ever

embarrassed by the tone? vice president biden? biden: i would say to him the same thing i say to my son who served a year in iraq that we only have one truly sacred obligation as a government, that's to equip those we send into harm's way and care for those who come home. that's the only sacred obligation we have. everything else falls behind that. i would also tell him that the fact that he, this decorated soldier you talked about, fought for his country, that that should be honored. he should not be thrown into a category of the 47% who don't pay their taxes while he was out there fighting and not having to pay taxes, and somehow not taking responsibility. i would also tell him that there are things that have occurred in this campaign and every campaign

that i'm sure both of us regret anyone having said, particularly in these -- these -- these special new groups that can go out this, raise all the money they want, not have to identify themselves, say the most scurrilous things. i ask that hero you referenced to take a look at whether or not governor romney or president obama has the conviction to help lift up the middle class, restore them where they were before this great recession hit, and they got wiped out, or whether or not he's going to continue to focus op taking care of only the very wealthy, not asking them to take in any part of the deal to bring back the middle class, the economy, this country. i would ask him to take a look at whether the president of the united states has agented wisely in the use of force -- acted wisely in the use of force, and whether or not the

slip knot comments made by governor romney serve our interest very well. there are things that have been said in campaigns that i find not very appealing. >> moderator: congressman ryan? ryan: first of all, thank you for your service to the country. second of all, we're not imposing devastating cuts to the military compromising their mission and safety. then i would say you have a president who ran for president four years ago promising hope and change who has now turnedded the campaign into attack, blame, and to fame. you see, if you don't have a good record o run op, you paint your opponent as someone to run from. obama said that in 2008, and that's what he's doing right now. look at all the string of broken promises. if you like your health care plan, you can keep it. tell that to the 20 million people projected to lose their health insurance if obamacare goes through or the 7.4 million

seniors who will lose it. he said i guarantee if you make less than $250,000, your taxes will not go up. of the 21 tax increases in obamacare, 12 of them hit the middle class. remember when he said health insurance premiums go down $2500 per family per year, going up $3,000 and expected to go up another $24 # 00. remember when he said i promise by the end of the first term, i cut the deficit in half in four years. we had four budgets, four trillion dollar deficits. a crisis is coming. we can't keep spending and borrowing money that we don't have like this. leaders run the problems to fix problems. president obama has not even put a credible plan on the table in any of the four years to deal with the debt crisis. i passed two. mitt romney put five years on the table. we have to tackling the debt crisis before it tackles us. the president says he has a plan. he gave a speech.

we asked his budget office, can we see the plan? the press secretary gave us a copy of the speech. we asked the cbo what the plan is to prevent a debt crisis and they said it's a speech, we can't estimate speeches. you see, that's way we get in thissed a -- administration, speeches. we're not getting leadership. mitt romney is uniquely qualified to fix the problems, lifetime of experience, proven track record of bipartisanship, and what do we have in the president? broke his big promise to bring people together to solve the biggest problems. what i tell him is we don't have to settle for this. we can do better than this. biden: i hope i get equal time. >> moderator: a few seconds really. biden: the two budgets that the congressman introduced e viz rated everything the middle class cared about. it knocks 200,000 children off of early education.

it will eliminate the tax credit parents have, cuts education by $450 billion. it does -- it does virtually nothing except to continue to increase the tax cuts for the very wealthy. you know, we had enough of this. my -- the idea that the so concerned about the deficits that i pointed out, he votedded to put two wars on a credit card. >> moderator: we're going to the closing statements in a minute. you'll have -- ripe ryan not raising -- ryan: not raising taxes is not cutting taxes. 3% a year rather than 4% like proposed. >> moderator: let me calm down things here just for a minute, and i want to talk to you very briefly before we go to closing statements about your own personal character. if you were elected, what could you both give to the country as a man, as a human being, that no one else could? ryan: honesty.

no one else could. there's plenty of fine people who could lead the country, but what you need are people who when they say they do something, they go do it. what you need are when people see problems, they offer solutions to fix the problems. we're not getting that. look, we can grow the economy faster. that's what the five point plan for a stronger middle class is about, 12 million jobs, higher take home pay, getting poser toy to -- poverty to the middle class. getting people to work, ideas on the table, working with democrats, that works sometimes. >> moderator: vice president, get to the issue what you can bring as a man and a human being. you have 15 seconds. biden: he gets 40, i have 15. >> moderator: he didn't have 40. biden: the record stands for itself. i never say anything i don't mean. whatever i say i do. my whole life is devoted to

leveling the playing field for middle class people, treating main street and wall street the same, holing them to the same responsibility. look at my record. it's all about the middle class. they are the people who grow the country. they grow the country middle out, not top down. >> moderator: we turn to the candidates for the closing statements. thank you, gentlemen, and that coin toss again has vice president starting with the closing statement. biden: i'll say at the outset that i thank you, martha, for doing this, and centre college. the fact is we're in a situation where we inherited a god-awful circumstance. people are in real trouble. we acted to move to bring relief to people who need the most help now, and in the process, in case you have not noticed, we have strong disagreements, but you probably detected my frustration with their attitude about the

american people. my friend says 30% of the american people are takers. they -- romney points out 47% of the people won't take responsibility. that's talking about my mother and father, the places i grew up in, my neighbors, talking about the people who built this country. all they are working for, martha, all they are looking for is an even shot. whenever you give them the shot, they've done it. whenever you level the playing field, they move. they want a little of peace of mind. the president and i will not rest until the playing field is leveled. they, in fact, have a clear shot, and they have peace of mind, until they turn to the kids and say with a degree of confidence, hopny, it's -- honey, it's going to be okay. so they can turn their child and say with a degree of confidence, honey, it's going to be okay. it's going to be okay. that is what this is all about. >> moderator: congressman ryan? ryan: i want to take thank you

as well, martha, and thank you, joe, it has been an honor to engage in this debate. we face a very good choice. what kind of country are we going to be? what kind of country are we going to give our kids? president obama had his chance. he made his choices. his economic agenda, more spending and borrowing, higher taxes, a government takeover of health care, it is not working. it is is failing to create the jobs need. twenty-three with million americans are struggling for work and 50 million americans are struggling in poverty. this is not what a recovery looks like. you deserve better. mitt romney and i want to earn your support. we are offering real reforms were a real recovery for every american. mitt romney is experienced, his ideas and solutions are uniquely qualified to get this job done.

a time when we have a jobs crisis in america, wouldn't it be nice to have a job creator in the white house? choice is clear. a stagnant economy creating more government dependency, or an economy that promote opportunity and jobs. mitt romney and i will not duck the tough issues. we will not blame others for the next four years. we will take responsibility, and we will not try to replace our founding principles. we will reapply our founding principles. the choice is clear. the choice rests with you. we ask you for your vote. thank you. >> moderator: thank you both again. thank you very much. this concludes the vice presidential debate. please tune in next tuesday for the second presidential debate at hofstra university in new york. i am martha raddatz of abc news. i hope all of you go to the polls. have a good evening.

[laughter] neil: rea, the vice presidential debate is done. martha raddatz was very focused and sharp come asking great questions to both candidates as they gather with their families. one of the things that you realize, i saw the vice president smirking and smiling a lot. that might be good or bad, depending on if you are fond of smirking and smiling. after a while it seemed to be overkill. a quick point you could make on paul ryan, certainly in the early going, he was just writing too much. i don't know what he was writing, but after a while, he sort of cooled on that and focused. obviously, as the debate ensued, paul ryan stop that and focus more on the vice president and

roughly the last hour of the debate. then it got more heated and much, much more direct. another thing i noticed is one someone refers to them as my friend, they don't mean that at all. when you refer to them as your friend and then he ripped them a new one, that is the way of washington. keep in mind, joe biden has been in washington. paul ryan was only three years old at the time joe biden was in washington. that explains the children and grandchildren of the vitamins. i don't even take a look at what is going on beside me, but if we canntake a look at these guys,

this is -- to dc's blue signs? those are obama surrogate signs. it represents the last name of someone who is going to be speaking on behalf of the democratic governor in maryland a short time ago. the red signs are romney surrogate. we are taking a rough count of that, a former bush spokesman. by our rough math, we saw about 25 or 26 romney surrogate signs and i think about a dozen or so of the lammas signs. be that that as it may come and, and there is nothing scientific about it, this is my the difference is we had much fewer surrogate on president obama.

the ratio is still two to one. romney representatives versus obama representatives. i only say that not referring to the president and the governor, who is not here tonight, but, the vice president and the man who wants to be vice president, they were here tonight. and this is where each side gives up their spins, they get out their ideas. one quick thing i will tell you if i go to my next guest, who has been through this once herself, i probably gave it away when i said herself, but before i get to sarah palin, a couple of quick and obvious things that will stand out here. not just the cosmetic ones that i noticed, but a big part of joe biden was saying -- we have

already heard at hearings the hearing said that was not the case, several security folks had alerted the administration about rising violence and particularly in benghazi and that those concerns were ignored. paul ryan was mentioning how it is cutting taxes across the board 20% for all income groups, and it would not be a net negative to the treasury. he talked about how he would recoup $1.2 trillion, removing deductions and allowing allowances. unfortunately got caught up in it with those allowances would be and how you arrive at $1.2 trillion in savings. which is essentially the cost of the tax cuts themselves. so he did little to boost this and he thought this would be revenue neutral without providing the fact. these are the issues that i

stress. that is just me. i was much more fixated on the fact that it was open here. you know where that is coming from. now, onto sarah on to sarah palo was in this position four years ago. and you know the expectation, governor, how it is played and not played. honey can paul ryan to deny? >> well, it was a tough format for paul ryan. it would be tough for any candidate when one candidate is allowed via the moderators action or inaction to allow a candidate to kind of run roughshod over the other guys. i thought that was kind of unfortunate that the moderators so allowed mr. biden to run -- it reminded me of a musk ox running across the tundra. neil: you know, that's a good point. he did interrupt a lot more.

that is an interesting thing that i noticed paul ryan interrupted a lot less. do you think that paul ryan should have interrupted a lot more than that, because joe biden was doing it so much, just to give himself equal attack time, you should have done so and would've been almost too polite? >> well, whatever it takes, to take the gloves off and show the american voter how passionate you are about helping to defend the republic, that the policies that you have are the right policies. you are talking facts and figures that don't lie when it comes to the economy, yes, if that's what it takes on paul ryan's part to go ahead and interrupt joe biden because he did it to him -- whatever it takes to really exude that passion for policies that will work to get the economy roaring again. neil: i mentioned how paul ryan may have tripped up on how he

would see governor romney's tax cuts end up being revenue neutral. he would not be nearly so costly. do you think he could be setting himself up for backrest tomorrow if he is essentially saying that these big tax cuts we are proposing, in the end, they may not be deductions and allowances, even though they aren't for upper income folks, but a lot of those upper income folks come a lot of those folks -- saying what the heck, is this going to be a substantial tax cut or woman? >> that's a great point, that perhaps some of the verbiage chosen by paul ryan will allow for the setup of the good press for biden and address for paul ryan in the morning when it comes to these tax cuts. you know, i kept waiting for and we talked about this last time,

why our candidates arguing over who should be hit with tax increases anyway? why aren't they arguing that government is spending too much on the problem and we need to make the big centralized government is irrelevant in our lives as possible, which includes cutting budgets and cutting money that we don't have these expenditures, to allow the private sector more flexibility and more opportunity to grow and thrive. i kept waiting for both sides to argue that. but i didn't hear it. neil: you know, i am curious, your name came up on this health care thing. particularly on, i think you had called it [inaudible] there you are, showing up as the subject matter in the debate. i want you to listen to this. >> here is what we are saying. younger people, when they beat him medicare eligible, guaranteed coverage options that you can't be denied, including

traditional medicare. choose your plan and then medicare subsidizes your premiums. not as much for the wealthy people, more coverage for middle income people, and total for the poor people. we would rather have 50 million future seniors determine how their medicare is delivered to them instead of 15 bureaucrats deciding what and if and when and where they get it. >> it seems every vice presidential debate, i do this kind of thing about panels. neil: what did you think of that? in other words, romney and ryan are misrepresenting the health care law and its restrictions? or its beaches? >> for joe biden to have said that he thinks he hears this panel talk on every vice presidential debate, how many vice presidential debates have there been in the last four years? this is only number two. i am glad that paul ryan was able to explain his idea and romney's idea is to allow for

more choices for recipients of health care coverage. for them to take responsibility, make their own choices, instead of relying on a bankrupt system that will no longer be there as a safety net for the american public. if we keep going down the road that obama wants us to go down. and as for the death penalty will paul ryan was talking about had nothing to do with the panel of bureaucrats that will make life and death decisions when it comes to coverage instead of our doctors and patients being able to have a relationship, making our own decisions about what kind of coverage we would like. joe biden highlighted that end i want to talk about why we cannot afford these panels come or anything else that is a part of obamacare. neil: do you think that leaves the vice president might have dispelled people enough of the notion that team and obama was imploding? there was a criticism that the president got last week.

i still don't know who they are going to save on this debate or not. i could see both strong points. at the very least, joe biden might have arrested that fear somewhat. what do you think? >> well, he filled his mission, i believe, in terms of what the mainstream media, the liberal media wanted him to do, and that was throw out that 47% comments, throw out some more of the hard-hitting comments that have been made in the past at the fact that president obama was aloof and disconnected and is engaged to do that. doing something that obama could not do. i think he could build his mission in that respect. you will see some commentary by the mainstream media. that he did kind of rescue in

some ways what obama should have been able to carry in his own debate, but obama failed. neil: i think you're writing about that, governor. it is always a pleasure. thank you very much. >> thank you so much, have fun. neil: we have dick durbin with us. >> good to be with you. neil: how did you like this? >> i think we all took a lesson. those of us who debate in politics, joe biden has passion, convictions, the facts, and he wouldn't let up. he held paul ryan to some of the things that he stood for. you really do want to privatize social security, explain that? if you want to change medicare as we know it, explain what that means to a senior who is not healthy and wealthy. neil: when paul ryan would say, this is a scheme that the

democrats are using, medicare is a piggy bank to fund obamacare, what did you think about? >> the online the joe biden misters explain to me when you put the $716 billion in savings in your own budget. if you consider this to be a great on medicare. neil: so they both did the same thing? >> what it boiled boils down to is that paul ryan did it because it is a reduction in the money paid to insurance companies and providers in the future. in trying to bring down the cost of medicare. it brought eight years of solvency for medicare. so if ryan-romney wants lemonade that, they just took away eight years of solvency and medicare. it would only last for years. they have some answers that they have to give him questions as well. neil: what about what appeared to be a big stopper, for me, vice president biden saying that there were no warnings from the security officials about

security threats in libya, particularly, benghazi. i guess what i'm asking you is, does that make him a very polished expert on all things foreign affairs? in conflict with the administration's own security officials? >> the questions are whether those concerns were communicated to his level. and from what he says, they were. neil: those concerns do not relate to the administration, when in fact, the security said that they would. >> we are now investigating that. we had both democratic and republican senators, the fbi, state department, they are all trying to investigate what was a terrible incident. i think the point they were trying to make is even before it was clear that the ambassador lost his life, or stevens was a

wonderful person, this was becoming a political issue. a press conference by the romney campaign. it was extremely poor timing. and he has been criticized for it. neil: was the administration on the same page? >> left of the investigation completed and the president said and the vice president said, we are doing so with the american people. look at ronald reagan, it gets right down to it, these horrible tragedies occur -- neil: you don't think it is an issue that drives and -- [talking over each other] >> let's get to the bottom of the facts. neil: senator, maybe you can enlighten me. when vice president biden was talking about those of the upper

income, those earning a million dollars or more, the party has argued it is the 250,000-dollar threshold. the vice president just raise that? >> you referred to both because both have been debating and voting on the senate. but the position of the administration, which biden said clearly, turning the paul ryan, why won't you a least let us preserve the middle class tax cuts for those making under $250,000. neil: he kept mentioning 1 million. >> there were several illustrations there. neil: so was he talking about the change of the administration? >> i don't think so. we voted on both plants. the most recent preserve the tax cut for those -- neil: so it's not a million

comments 250,000? >> i still do. i still think so. the republican filibuster stopped us from preserving these middle-class tax cuts. i think that is unfortunate. the point was made by vice president biden. neil: we have a lot more coming up. we have herman cain, dissecting the facts, they both have a strong vote that has lucy goose point. we are going to try to go through all that. also foreign market reaction to that as well. most of the asian markets are up. futures are up, i have no idea whether it is significantly tied to this, we will have more after this. 0t[h7

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neil: take a look at this room here in kentucky. this is a lot more crowded than was. we have a lot more democratic servants than we did last week. an estimated 30 romney surrogates. the blue signs tend to be obama, in this case, vice president joe biden. generally if you want to push the view that your guide to great comic figure people out there to say that he did great. if you don't, you don't have as many people. ted strickland with us right now. well-known democrat. is that the science on this? if it's two to one, more red

than blue surrogates, would he make of that? >> the democrats are emphasizing quality over quantity. neil: how do you think the vice president did? after what was widely a disappointing performance on the part of the president. >> i thought he did well. i thought was a good debate. it was testy but not disrespectful. neil: i'm doing this to you right now, but does the vice president and are up too much? >> no, i don't think so. the president was criticized last week for not doing enough. neil: that's a very good point. >> i thought it was a respectful kind of interaction. neil: maybe it is me, but the smirk and a smile. a little bit is okay, but if it

was overkill -- it just got a little weird. >> i would call it a smile rather than a smirk. let me say this, if the only thing that they can criticize about this debate is the vice president smiling rather than, you know, the substance of what he said. and i think that is the greater. neil: both sides have their clubs. the right side saying that the administration was not warned about security threats in benghazi when we learned today by security officials that indeed, they were warned. that is a pretty big boo-boo. >> it depends on who is one. and i am not sure the vice president was talking about that. neil: you don't think the vice president lied? >> no, i'm sure he didn't. neil: all right, paul ryan.

-- saying that things essentially pay for themselves. you always look in her? >> i would ask this question. why is the romney-ryan team willing to say that they are going to cut the rate 20%. they are very specific about that part. but they are not specific about the deductions were the savings. >> so the deductions -- >> my suspicions are those deductions would involve mortgage deduction, -- things that really hurt the middle class. neil: okay. it could still be a tossup right? >> it looks good right now. neil: we shall see. we have ron johnson coming up from wisconsin. what he makes of the race. the race that is tighter than it was. who knows, it's a great time to

be a journalist. >> it is indeed

i know the name of eight princesses. i'm an expert on softball. and tea parties. i'll have more awkward conversations than i'm equipped fo because i'm raising two girls on my own. i'll worry about the economy more than a few times before they're grown. but it's for them, so i've found a way. who matters most to you says the most about you. massmutual is owned by our policyholders so they matter most to us. massmutual. we'll help you get there. you see us, at the start of the day. on the company phone list that's a few names longer. you see us bank on busier highways. on once empty fields. everyday you see all the ways all of us at us bank